Paul Holdengräber Director, Public Programs, The New York Public Library
Jonathan Lethem. Author
Mark Tribe, Assistant Professor of Modern Culture & Media Studies, Brown University
Suzanne Vega, Singer-songwriter

PH: Is this conversation about copyright or about the dangers if pilfery? Plays a song "Tom's Diner," first by Suzanne Vega, then by numerous remixes of her works, including one in German and one with their own saucy lyrics.

TO SV: How does it feel to hear it? SV: Manager said that they were going to sue someone for a remix, she liked it, thought that they had added value, they didn't have any money anyway, why not release it as a single and perhaps it would help sales. Bought it in 1990 for a flat fee, every times they sold a version of that song they would make money. Then people started remixing it like crazy and sending it to her. Orignal money to the original remixer was low, then had to ask new remixers for their permissions in Denmark, Germany and elsewhere. Now there are 34-40 remixes of "Tom's Diner." Usually says yes to buying them unless they're too slick for for uses like a porn channel. Does it express something cool is the key. But she has the right. Listened to Dangermouse version. MT: The song has become an anthem of sorts, perhaps because people knew that it was a use and ask later tradition. SV: Dangermouse decided to use and "tried" to contact record company, worked it out later.

JL: Appreciated previous panel, by being articulate about legal matters it brought it up to the limit of what artists can do to express themselves. Made me think about incentivizing people to consider copyright. Really wanted to write books, discovered that he had to pay the New Yorker to get published. Gradually turned his writing into a middle class living, very few are incentivized by that prospect, a hundred better ways to make money. Most who go on doing it still have day jobs and the incentive never disappears. When you examine how artists create a work it takes enormous acts of imitation and appropriation and recombination, because nothing comes from nowhere. A baby acquires language by imitation, everything's an enormous mosaic of materials from previous experiences. Some of those works will be protected, and artists can express what it is about it that needs to be protected. Hemingway, Beckett, you encounter them and it seems totally original, but Hemingway's first collection was very derivative, as was Beckett. Everyone arrives by this same process.

PH: Does it belittle you that things were appropriated? MT: Doesn't belittle me at all, the concept of originality is suspect, but originality is different from how things are made. It's not just about the pleasures of pilfering for us, crucial for artists to have access to previous cultural works. Have to balance needs of previous artists and artists who need access to them to create new works. Culture about culture is what helps us to understand the society we live in.

SV: If you're a good artist, you can create something that's really your own, that's authentic. Bob Dylan was always appropriating things. JL: Dylan is sourced everywhere, yet he's unmistakably original. His songs wouldn't have existed without him. SV: Helps to make a living, especially if you're a single mother, that's why these things are called into question. JL: But the minute that you start generalizing you find yourself on shaky ground. Almost always immaculately specific.

PH: We all steal but it matters who we stole from and what we did with it. MT: Difference between sourcing and plagiarism? Need to pay the rent as an artist, need to be multiple motivations, cash is king in our society, helps to get paid. Lots of things contributing to free software projects, helps to get paid as consultants, there are other economic models. Grateful Dead allowed fans to come to record their concerts, even reserved them a special section, because they most of their money from touring. Lots of artists give it away for free and make money selling authentic or special packaged versions, lots of people paid for Radiohead album, even though they had it available for free online. SV: 9-Inch Nails artist tried a free release, disappointed that so many took it for free instead of paying, for a new release 26 songs were bundled many different ways, made USD 1.9 million dollars in a few days.

JL: When someone more powerful takes something from someone less powerful we notice (COMMENT: Chiffons' "She's So Fine" copied by George Harrison to produce "My Sweet Lord"). You have to follow the implications, trace it down into the tribal digital culture, seemingly effortless and half-baked YouTube videos. But like Beckett imitating Joyce, out of these humble or pathetic beginnings come other gestures. These gestures need to be validated by noticing the connections.

PH: But some regulation is necessary. JL: Sure, but if no damage is done, why pursue. Stealing a song is not like stealing a wallet. MT: Franfurt School of 1930s, works of art have an aura in which we hold it precious, when we have copies of the Mona Lisa everywhere, is the aura of the Mona Lisa diminished? Seems like appropriation will become more important and more ridiculous.

PH: How do artists survive? SV: I'm interested in that, thinking about the Mona Lisa aura issue, I don't think that it has, the actual painting when you go and look at it has its own presence. Hasn't happened with food, for example, heard one teenager compare the cost of a song to a Happy Meal, won't spend our money on songs. If we could press a button and get eggs, it would be rampant. The music industry is falling apart because of the ease of reproducing the quality of the original work. JL: Hyde's book The Gift, gift culture nests inside commercial culture, it's not either/or, but while you dont' question gifts you don't do that in your career oftentimes and in art experiences. If I buy a book for $20 no amount can match how it might change your life. Artists dwell in a gift economy, he charges universities handsomely, but other venues he does for free. Gift transactions inform everything, doesn't take me out of the mercantile economy, but it does mean that my actions are in a sense impure, they're an impure conflation.

SV: You have that option, you can choose. JL: Don't want to suggest that you should be giving your money away involuntarily. SV: If someone came into your house and took something as a gift you'd be angry. PH: Amazed that in the U.S. there were things that were "gift stores." JL: A totally impure case, 14 year-old punches on your remix and then goes to your next concert. SV: Dangermouse attended at least one legal class to understand the boundaries. JL: Author is alive for only a limited amount of time, yet now copyright easily outstrips their life. How can you incentivize a dead person to make more art?

Interesting panel, a real pleasure to hear Suzanne Vega talk about her challenges in trying to work with remixers, the others provided some insight into the gifts and what is reasonable from an artist's perspective. But at the end of the day it's not clear to me that artists are really grasping fully the opportunities for monetizing their content online. For music specifically, the suppression of radio on the Web has greatly reduced opportunities for licensed content in new contexts through social media. File sharing gets content there to some degree, as does iPods, but there's an inadequate mixture of business models. Commercial radio on traditional airwaves is utterly inadequate, it promotes a tiny sliver of content, makes it nearly impossible to build a fan base effectively and therefore makes it of little benefit from the vast majority of artists. By contrast online and mobile venues excel at these capabilities but are not well suited to channel revenues to artists in many instances because media companies are more concerned about making large sums of money off of the sliver rather than the rest of their catalog. Copyright is treated as the barrier, but the barrier is the lack of inventiveness about business models that copyright prevents. If distribution is now largely free to consumers and inexpensive or free for distibutors, then the value of a system based on the difficulty of distribution.

In the meantime a whole new generation growing up outside of this traditional system is creating a lot of value through their own original works of authorship and are begging for a system that will enable them to benefit from their works. There's a gap here which will be filled in the next few years, and it's a gap that major publishers may or may not benefit from directly.

Labels: copyright, copyright clearance center, intellectual property